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Post by Grossmeister on Jul 13, 2012 18:06:09 GMT
I am not speaking "This game no have different build". Some build game have. Weak dancer, Endurance flasher and strong fighter. Weak dancer use jab and stun line maybe counter in body and jab,or stun line. Flasher use inside in head, or allout. Weak tipe vs human. Strong fighter beat body then TKO. But Strong fighter have advantage. I create Wlad Klichko, he is have 130 point and 3 line FP. But beat Ali with 154 point and big FP. Because strong fighter have advantage. He have KP and attempt to drop him can bad result.
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Post by Pav on Jul 13, 2012 18:09:55 GMT
I am not speaking "This game no have different build". Some build game have. Weak dancer, Endurance flasher and strong fighter. Weak dancer use jab and stun line maybe counter in body and jab,or stun line. Flasher use inside in head, or allout. Weak tipe vs human. Strong fighter beat body then TKO. But Strong fighter have advantage. I create Wlad Klichko, he is have 130 point and 3 line FP. But beat Ali with 154 point and big FP. Because strong fighter have advantage. He have KP and attempt to drop him can bad result. Sounds like many think KP is too strong here in B2G. That's good feedback. Perhaps I should dial it back a little.
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Post by UGI on Jul 13, 2012 18:28:58 GMT
+ 1 for punchy I have to admit that I complained about the "cherry picking" or "jumping" tactics in webl. It just didn't seem very sportsmanlike to me. At least here you have a chance to accept or reject a contract offer. Here, cherry picking....i mean fight selection is my bread and butter As for the builds, KP and style/fighter/matchups etc. I think we really need to have some more expericene at the world level before we start making any assumtions on the sim.
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Post by Grossmeister on Jul 13, 2012 18:58:47 GMT
I am tired to speak in this languge. I am too bad know English language. I can not explain. Maybe Powerlile will come back and explain in detail.
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Post by Pav on Jul 13, 2012 19:11:08 GMT
I am tired to speak in this languge. I am too bad know English language. I can not explain. Maybe Powerlile will come back and explain in detail. I understand, cycle , paper - scissors - rock. I know what you need. можешь писать на русском языке; мне в РМ
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Post by Grossmeister on Jul 13, 2012 19:34:48 GMT
Ïåðåéäó íà Ðóññêèé. ß ðåàëüíî óñòàë îò ýòîãî òàðàáàðñêîãî ÿçûêà. Ïîãîâîðèì î áîåâîé ñîñòàâëÿþùåé. Ýêîíîìè÷åñêàÿ è òàê âûøå âñÿêèõ ïîõâàë. Èòàê. Áîé äåëàåò ðàçíèöà ñòèëåé. Ðàçëè÷èå áîéöîâ ñ ÊÏ è áåç íåãî ñóùåñòâåííîå. ÊÏ áîéöû ëèáî âûðóáàþò ëèáî çàñòàâëÿþò ïðîòèâíèêà âåñòè ñåáÿ ñìèðíî óãðîçîé ïîéòè â ãîëîâó. Ñèëîâèêè ëèáî ñøèáàþò âûíîñëèâîñòü, ëèáî íåóÿçâèìû äëÿ óðîíà(ðîïèñòû) ëèáî èìåþò ìàëóþ ñèëó íî ïðåèìóùåñòâî â ñêîðîñòè èëè ëîâêîñòè. ÊÏ áîéöû ïðèìèòèâíåé â ðàçû. Áåç ÊÏøíèêè î÷åíü ìíîãîîáðàçíû è òîò æå ëîâêèé ñëàããåð è ñëàããåð ýòî äâà ñîâåðøåííî ðàçíûõ áèëäà ñ àáñîëþòíî ðàçíîé òàêòèêîé. Âñÿ èãðà òàêèìè ðàçíûìè áîéöàìè ñâîäèòñÿ ê òîìó ÷òî êàæäûé òèï ìîæåò ïîáåäèòü êàêèå òî òèïû, íî âñåãäà ñëàáåå êàêèõ òî äðóãèõ òèïîâ. Íî ãëàâíîå, ÊÏ áîéöû ýòî âñåãäà àâàíòþðà è ñëó÷àéíîñòü. Îíè âûíóæäåíû èäòè âà áàíê, ÷òî áû âûðóáèòü èì ïðîñòî íåîáõîäèìî ðèñêîâàòü. Ìû èìååì èãðó ãäå âñå áîéöû ÊÏ è ïðè ýòîì ðàñ÷èòàííóþ òàê ÷òî äîñòîÿòü äî êîíöà î÷åíü òðóäíî. Ïîýòîìó ïîëó÷àåòñÿ ÷òî ìîæíî âûäóìàòü õîòü òûñÿ÷ó áèëäîâ. Íî âñå ýòî áóäåò ëîæ. Áèëäû ðàçëè÷àþòñÿ íå êîëè÷åñòâîì î÷êîâ, à òàêòèêàìè êîòîðûå ìîãóò áûòü óñïåøíû.  ýòîé èãðå óñïåøíûõ òàêòèê øòóêè òðè. Íî íà ñàìîì òî äåëå, îíà îäíà óñïåøíàÿ òàêòèêà. Òàê êàê ó âñåõ ÊÏ òî èäòè ïî ïóçó îáÿçàòåëüíî íàäî, ëåã÷å ïîòîì ïðîáèòü áóäåò. Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî ýôôåêòèâíûì ïîëó÷àåòñÿ âñåãî ëèøü îäèí òèï áîéöà. Áåç ðàçíèöû êàêèå ó íåãî ñòàòû. Íî îí îäèí áóäåò ýôôåêòèâåí ïî ïóçó. ×òî òî òèïà ìàêñèìóì ñèëû, ìàêñèìóì ôóòâîðêà è ñðåäíå ñêîðîñòè.  èòîãå ìû ïîëó÷àåì îäèí äîìèíèðóþùèé òèï êîòîðûé îäíîé òàêòèêîé âñåõ ïåðåóáèâàåò. Åñëè ìîæíî ñîçäàòü ñóïåðôëýøåðà êîòîðûé áóäåò ïðîøèáàòü ëþáóþ çàùèòó, òî äîìèíàíò áóäåò îí. Âèäèøü ê ÷åìó ÿ êëîíþ? Êàê íå êðóòè íî ïðè òàêîì ðàñêëàäå áóäåò òîëüêî îäèí äîìèíàíòíûé òèï è îäíà óñïåøíàÿ òàêòèêà. Ïðè íåñêîëüêèõ âïîëíå æèçíåñïîñîáíûõ ïðîòèâ êîìïüþòåðà. Èç çà íèçêîé âûíîñëèâîñòè è áîëüøîãî óðîíà èãðà íà î÷êè íå èìååò ìíîãî ñìûñëà. Âðÿä ëè ïðîòèâíèê äîñòîèò äî êîíöà. Ïðîòèâíèêó ïðèäåòñÿ îãðûçàòüñÿ è ïûòàòüñÿ íîêàóòèðîâàòü. Òî åñòü òåðÿåòñÿ äîáðàÿ ïîëîâèíà ñìûñëà èãðû, íàáîð î÷êîâ. Èãðó âûòÿãèâàåò òî ÷òî íåëüçÿ áîéöîâ ñîçäàâàòü. Òåïåðü ÿ ïîíÿë ïî÷åìó. Âñå íàäåëàþò îäèíàêîâûõ ëîâêèõ ÊÏ ñëàããåðîâ è áóäóò áîäàòüñÿ. Ïðè âñåé ñâîåé ìíîãîîáðàçíîñòè èãðà íà ñàìîì òî äåëå ïðåâðàùàåòñÿ â òóïîå ðóáèëîâî. Ó êîãî ýôôåêòèâíåé áîåö. Ó êîãî áîëüøå î÷êîâ. Íåò èíòðèãè. Ìåñòíàÿ ïóáëèêà êîíå÷íî îäîáðÿåò òàêîå. Îíè è â âåáëå çâåçä ñ íåáà íå õâàòàëè. Íàñòîÿùèå ìîíñòðû âåáëà ñþäà íå ïðèøëè. Ìîæíî ñêàçàòü ÷òî Ëè÷(Ïîâåðëèëü) ïîñëåäíèé èç ìîãèêàí, ìîé ó÷èòåëü èãðû ÊÏ áîéöàìè. È òîò êóäà òî ïðîïàë. Íàâåðíîå ïðîñ÷èòàë âñå òî ÷òî ÿ ñåé÷àñ ïîíÿë è ñâàëèë.
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Post by punchy on Jul 13, 2012 19:39:36 GMT
Don't rush into anything, ko fighters get beat all the time by AI managed fighters so managers are just getting their tactics wrong? Maybe the solution is to start making fighters with less EXP going forward? Or make Chins a trainable attribute? My experience with these types of games is that it is dangerous to rush into sim changes as the effects can far wider than intended...
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Post by Pav on Jul 13, 2012 20:33:09 GMT
Ïåðåéäó íà Ðóññêèé. ß ðåàëüíî óñòàë îò ýòîãî òàðàáàðñêîãî ÿçûêà. Ïîãîâîðèì î áîåâîé ñîñòàâëÿþùåé. Ýêîíîìè÷åñêàÿ è òàê âûøå âñÿêèõ ïîõâàë. Èòàê. Áîé äåëàåò ðàçíèöà ñòèëåé. Ðàçëè÷èå áîéöîâ ñ ÊÏ è áåç íåãî ñóùåñòâåííîå. ÊÏ áîéöû ëèáî âûðóáàþò ëèáî çàñòàâëÿþò ïðîòèâíèêà âåñòè ñåáÿ ñìèðíî óãðîçîé ïîéòè â ãîëîâó. Ñèëîâèêè ëèáî ñøèáàþò âûíîñëèâîñòü, ëèáî íåóÿçâèìû äëÿ óðîíà(ðîïèñòû) ëèáî èìåþò ìàëóþ ñèëó íî ïðåèìóùåñòâî â ñêîðîñòè èëè ëîâêîñòè. ÊÏ áîéöû ïðèìèòèâíåé â ðàçû. Áåç ÊÏøíèêè î÷åíü ìíîãîîáðàçíû è òîò æå ëîâêèé ñëàããåð è ñëàããåð ýòî äâà ñîâåðøåííî ðàçíûõ áèëäà ñ àáñîëþòíî ðàçíîé òàêòèêîé. Âñÿ èãðà òàêèìè ðàçíûìè áîéöàìè ñâîäèòñÿ ê òîìó ÷òî êàæäûé òèï ìîæåò ïîáåäèòü êàêèå òî òèïû, íî âñåãäà ñëàáåå êàêèõ òî äðóãèõ òèïîâ. Íî ãëàâíîå, ÊÏ áîéöû ýòî âñåãäà àâàíòþðà è ñëó÷àéíîñòü. Îíè âûíóæäåíû èäòè âà áàíê, ÷òî áû âûðóáèòü èì ïðîñòî íåîáõîäèìî ðèñêîâàòü. Ìû èìååì èãðó ãäå âñå áîéöû ÊÏ è ïðè ýòîì ðàñ÷èòàííóþ òàê ÷òî äîñòîÿòü äî êîíöà î÷åíü òðóäíî. Ïîýòîìó ïîëó÷àåòñÿ ÷òî ìîæíî âûäóìàòü õîòü òûñÿ÷ó áèëäîâ. Íî âñå ýòî áóäåò ëîæ. Áèëäû ðàçëè÷àþòñÿ íå êîëè÷åñòâîì î÷êîâ, à òàêòèêàìè êîòîðûå ìîãóò áûòü óñïåøíû.  ýòîé èãðå óñïåøíûõ òàêòèê øòóêè òðè. Íî íà ñàìîì òî äåëå, îíà îäíà óñïåøíàÿ òàêòèêà. Òàê êàê ó âñåõ ÊÏ òî èäòè ïî ïóçó îáÿçàòåëüíî íàäî, ëåã÷å ïîòîì ïðîáèòü áóäåò. Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî ýôôåêòèâíûì ïîëó÷àåòñÿ âñåãî ëèøü îäèí òèï áîéöà. Áåç ðàçíèöû êàêèå ó íåãî ñòàòû. Íî îí îäèí áóäåò ýôôåêòèâåí ïî ïóçó. ×òî òî òèïà ìàêñèìóì ñèëû, ìàêñèìóì ôóòâîðêà è ñðåäíå ñêîðîñòè.  èòîãå ìû ïîëó÷àåì îäèí äîìèíèðóþùèé òèï êîòîðûé îäíîé òàêòèêîé âñåõ ïåðåóáèâàåò. Åñëè ìîæíî ñîçäàòü ñóïåðôëýøåðà êîòîðûé áóäåò ïðîøèáàòü ëþáóþ çàùèòó, òî äîìèíàíò áóäåò îí. Âèäèøü ê ÷åìó ÿ êëîíþ? Êàê íå êðóòè íî ïðè òàêîì ðàñêëàäå áóäåò òîëüêî îäèí äîìèíàíòíûé òèï è îäíà óñïåøíàÿ òàêòèêà. Ïðè íåñêîëüêèõ âïîëíå æèçíåñïîñîáíûõ ïðîòèâ êîìïüþòåðà. Èç çà íèçêîé âûíîñëèâîñòè è áîëüøîãî óðîíà èãðà íà î÷êè íå èìååò ìíîãî ñìûñëà. Âðÿä ëè ïðîòèâíèê äîñòîèò äî êîíöà. Ïðîòèâíèêó ïðèäåòñÿ îãðûçàòüñÿ è ïûòàòüñÿ íîêàóòèðîâàòü. Òî åñòü òåðÿåòñÿ äîáðàÿ ïîëîâèíà ñìûñëà èãðû, íàáîð î÷êîâ. Èãðó âûòÿãèâàåò òî ÷òî íåëüçÿ áîéöîâ ñîçäàâàòü. Òåïåðü ÿ ïîíÿë ïî÷åìó. Âñå íàäåëàþò îäèíàêîâûõ ëîâêèõ ÊÏ ñëàããåðîâ è áóäóò áîäàòüñÿ. Ïðè âñåé ñâîåé ìíîãîîáðàçíîñòè èãðà íà ñàìîì òî äåëå ïðåâðàùàåòñÿ â òóïîå ðóáèëîâî. Ó êîãî ýôôåêòèâíåé áîåö. Ó êîãî áîëüøå î÷êîâ. Íåò èíòðèãè. Ìåñòíàÿ ïóáëèêà êîíå÷íî îäîáðÿåò òàêîå. Îíè è â âåáëå çâåçä ñ íåáà íå õâàòàëè. Íàñòîÿùèå ìîíñòðû âåáëà ñþäà íå ïðèøëè. Ìîæíî ñêàçàòü ÷òî Ëè÷(Ïîâåðëèëü) ïîñëåäíèé èç ìîãèêàí, ìîé ó÷èòåëü èãðû ÊÏ áîéöàìè. È òîò êóäà òî ïðîïàë. Íàâåðíîå ïðîñ÷èòàë âñå òî ÷òî ÿ ñåé÷àñ ïîíÿë è ñâàëèë. Solid reasoning. The argument is made that in this game KP is too powerful and point wins are almost impossible. Everyone will go to the body then head and win given they have good agility strength and decent speed. So only really one fighter type can have success. I think it is be true. I do note that there is a lack of non-explosive/str based fighters making it high up the world rankings. Correct me if you see otherwise. I will start gradually changing the balance on some schedule that I will post here.
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Post by Grossmeister on Jul 13, 2012 21:03:39 GMT
Don't rush into anything, ko fighters get beat all the time by AI managed fighters so managers are just getting their tactics wrong? Maybe the solution is to start making fighters with less EXP going forward? Or make Chins a trainable attribute? My experience with these types of games is that it is dangerous to rush into sim changes as the effects can far wider than intended... I agree. Need a test region.
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Post by Pav on Jul 14, 2012 3:52:45 GMT
it is just linear adjustments but you can try to see if linear adjustments can be sufficient to make this possible for low str/kp boxers to make it and to get the cycle. www.box2glory.com/fightsimtest.htm
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Post by Grossmeister on Jul 14, 2012 7:23:00 GMT
it is just linear adjustments but you can try to see if linear adjustments can be sufficient to make this possible for low str/kp boxers to make it and to get the cycle. www.box2glory.com/fightsimtest.htm Wow, good news for everyone!
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Post by Unforgiven on Jul 27, 2012 13:48:58 GMT
Had a fighter with a 6-9 strength advantage vs a fighter with a 1-4 strength. I have the discussed 6 conditioning I cant raise to at least 7 for at least 4 fights. It will realistically take 12 fights until he has a useful conditioning. The 1-4 strength fighter kicks the crap out of me by going outside? I never go inside, stick with efficient clinch lines and he has me dead by the 10th round. This should not be possible. We need to be able to fix conditioning
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Post by punchy on Jul 27, 2012 15:30:19 GMT
Had a fighter with a 6-9 strength advantage vs a fighter with a 1-4 strength. I have the discussed 6 conditioning I cant raise to at least 7 for at least 4 fights. It will realistically take 12 fights until he has a useful conditioning. The 1-4 strength fighter kicks the crap out of me by going outside? I never go inside, stick with efficient clinch lines and he has me dead by the 10th round. This should not be possible. We need to be able to fix conditioning Did you try headhunting early with power 0-25H-50-25 {clinch} or {inside}? It has worked with me against low STR guys when I have a STR advantage...I have 3 fighters with crap stamina but KO's have been their friend ;D You can only fight efficiently if you have decent stamina, if not then you need to look at other tactics...
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Post by bobjoejim on Jul 27, 2012 17:49:05 GMT
Too many fighters win with 80-100% KO and TKO. Not a real. Need lower damage or higher protection. One thing to consider on this point is the difference (especially at low levels) between Sim AI fight plans and human fight plans. If you dig around a little, you'll find a lot of fighters who have every fight end in the first few rounds for several years, then a human gym signs them and their first five fights go the distance. I think the high prevalence of knockouts, particularly among bottom of the barrel journeymen, is less due to the way the fight engine is set up or the types of boxers that are generated, and is more due to the fight plans used at the national level by the AI. Remember, the AI is intentionally dumbed down at the national level, to help make things a little easier for new gyms.
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