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Post by Pav on Sept 17, 2012 2:23:27 GMT
At the end of tourneys we were thinking to release everyone stats to help us balance the game. Now we have more people and I want everyone to be able to let their opinion be heard. Should we release everyone's stats at the end of tourney or would that be bad?
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Post by Ghosts on Sept 17, 2012 2:43:26 GMT
Hmm.. There are pros and cons to it..
Releasing everyones stats will give those that are more maths based and very big insight into the fight sim itself. I haven't seen anywhere any of the engine formulas, by giving everyones stats people will be able to basically recreate the fight down to the exact damage and work out more about the engine..( obviously can do that now to an extent but there is always a bit of guess factor involved) Whether you think that is a good or bad thing that's up to you.
It would be good for those managers that are new to games like this to give them an idea of what a "good" fighter looks like. This would make there choices on hiring boxers in the real game (non-tourny version) more informed it will also help them with training.
With all that being said even the ex-webl managers would be flying a bit blind at the moment and going more with gut than with any sound knowledge.
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Post by bullan on Sept 17, 2012 12:21:06 GMT
Agreed with all of the above . Us not being able to see the winning builds hopefully avoids "cookie cutter " builds becoming the norm and the more mathematical amongst us becoming Kachalkian gods ( would be fascinating in the short term though  ) . |
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Post by Pav on Sept 17, 2012 13:59:31 GMT
But to achieve good balance we should not be scared to show the builds. The very openness today will allow us to not have super builds tomorrow.
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Post by bullan on Sept 17, 2012 14:44:55 GMT
Kind of enjoy the puzzle/battle of wits of figuring out our own builds rather than half of them being copies but will have to see how it turns out
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Post by Unforgiven on Sept 17, 2012 16:12:45 GMT
I dont think we are going to have as much of a problem with the "math whiz" in box 2 glory for a couple of reasons.
1. Outside of tournaments we dont build our own fighters. In webl most of the better managers knew how to make the most efficient fighters
2. you cant scout someone to their exact stats. In webl i could look at someones height, weights last few fights and scout them within 1-3 aps.
Combine those together in webl you have a perfect build and know exactly what your opponent's ap placement is, the sim equations and you can make a stupidly successful plan.
In box2glory I have yet to see a perfect built fighter and even with the best scouts you still can only guess attribute scores based on a range for each so you could literally be off 10 points having all the attribute ranges known to you.
Personally I would like to see the builds that get to the end of the tourney, to see what kind of balance the builds have
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Post by punchy on Sept 17, 2012 16:26:15 GMT
I dont think we are going to have as much of a problem with the "math whiz" in box 2 glory for a couple of reasons. 1. Outside of tournaments we dont build our own fighters. In webl most of the better managers knew how to make the most efficient fighters 2. you cant scout someone to their exact stats. In webl i could look at someones height, weights last few fights and scout them within 1-3 aps. Combine those together in webl you have a perfect build and know exactly what your opponent's ap placement is, the sim equations and you can make a stupidly successful plan. In box2glory I have yet to see a perfect built fighter and even with the best scouts you still can only guess attribute scores based on a range for each so you could literally be off 10 points having all the attribute ranges known to you. Personally I would like to see the builds that get to the end of the tourney, to see what kind of balance the builds have I agree with this, there are too many unknowns in B2G for the maths whizz to dominate. I suspect that the real advantage in building fighters in these tournies in B2G is in working out what non-physical stats that you can scrimp on to maximise your fighting abilities; I have some theories on this but have not had time to test them... |
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Post by Apollyon on Sept 17, 2012 16:47:00 GMT
That was the problem I had too. I was not sure how important the non WEBL attributes are and didnt want to catastrophically underestimate their importance so I am pretty sure that I probably put more than was needed into a couple of them.
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Post by bullan on Sept 17, 2012 16:47:50 GMT
mainly planning on being a tourney fighter , guess is why am concerned |
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Post by Pav on Sept 17, 2012 17:00:37 GMT
Having a well balanced fighter types and allowing several ways to win would be great in a long run for everyone. Now if we do not have well balanced situation (like probably now) that is when we have concerns about making our attributes public.
But if we are able to adjust and fix the imbalances as we go than everyone wins.
If there are like at least 3 different ways to win and they all rely on well build plans instead of super-build fighter types that exploit imbalance. When we fill that we reached a good point to stop adjusting we can stop sharing attributes at the end of tourney.
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Post by Ghosts on Sept 18, 2012 0:02:21 GMT
I understand having balance is the key to games like this.. I still question the wisdom though of publishing all fighter stats at the end of the tourny.. for the large majority of players - balance means absolutely nothing as they don't grasp the concept (not trying to sound like a ass there but it is true). They will see the winning build and copy it and then we have a tourny with 10 clones running round because everyone wants to win.
The other reason why I question the wisdom is that even with all the information at hand (builds published) there are only a handful of managers that can actually use that information to help create balance.
I would say a if you are worried about balance (and from what I have seen in my short time here there does seem to be an issue). I would setup a private part to the this forum with access only granted to a smaller group of players who can work with you to nut out the balance issues.
From what I have seen in the practice sim is
-Strength trumps everything by a long way
-Explosivness is a waste of time (it doesn't work like WeBl, 12/4 and 15/5 in Box2Glory in theory should be more damaging than 12/4 and 15/5 in WeBL it's not and it doesn't seem to have the same teeth, even 18/6 doesn't seem enough to get the job done).
- Height/reach advantage doesn't seem to have any affect on speed (ie a short speedy fighter can still tie round with a tall speedy fighter but the shorter fighter more often than not also builds an endurance advantage.
I have simmed a fair few fights now and tonights fight with UGI will back alot of this up. Basically if UGI has 20 speed and 20 Agl he will need a strength of > 18 to be able to beat me in the endurance war. The thing is if he doesn't have a strength of > 18 then he doesn't come close in the endurance war, he can pinch a few round but by about round 4 or 5 I have a considerable endurance lead and I'm already tieing round or winning them myself.
I have given too much away about my tourny fighter now, but I suppose that is probably a good thing to help get balance. Pav I had sent you a PM on this forum if you want to use my tourny fighter as a test subject.
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Post by Pav on Sept 18, 2012 0:17:35 GMT
ok, probably you are right, should be a smaller group to see it. Maybe just top 4 tourney gyms.
Explosivness here is measures differently than webl
20 str 20 expl here is like 45str/15exp in webl. So the number 20 means full explosiveness is full 1/3 of str. While explosiveness of 1 is 1/20th of 1/3 of str.
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Post by Ghosts on Sept 18, 2012 1:06:47 GMT
ok, probably you are right, should be a smaller group to see it. Maybe just top 4 tourney gyms. Explosivness here is measures differently than webl 20 str 20 expl here is like 45str/15exp in webl. So the number 20 means full explosiveness is full 1/3 of str. While explosiveness of 1 is 1/20th of 1/3 of str. It doesn't have to be the top 4 gyms, but it does need to be gyms that understand what "balance" looks like - I good understanding the maths is extremely important along with also having the time to be able to test changes you have made. It would help if you do have an area in the game where changes you make to the sim can be tested without affecting the rest of the game.. Impartial people are also a must as you don't want people who are going to test/suggest changes that are doing so for there best interests insted of the best interests for the game. As for KP/explosiveness (sorry still so used to WeBL lingo) - 20/20 is like 45/15 which would be a massive flasher (or at a stretch a KP Slugger) in WeBl. The style of fighters I was talking about are more KP Balanced or KP Dancers which in WeBl definitely had ways to win and they have a range of say 9/3 through to 18/6. I haven't seen from what I have simmed (and I haven't simmed extensively) any real advantage to having a KP Dancer/Balanced style of fighter - you can't win the endurance war, it's hard to win rounds without giving up to much of and endurance advantage and even when you get the endurance fighter to drop his defence early in the fight to up his damage the flash attempt for even a 18/6 fighter (unless of course you are saying an 18/6 figher in this game doesn't have enough explosiveness and the fighter is caught in no mans land) in this game isn't enough to get the KO against a strong fighter with a chin of 12. Now that very well maybe because the chin on the strong fighter is 12 and 12 is quite a high number in this game compared to 12 in WeBL being just about the max chin you would have used. **Edit it may also have somethign to do with the amount of Defense I was running. |
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Post by Pav on Sept 18, 2012 2:05:09 GMT
9/3 webl is about 4/20 in b2g. 18/6 is about 7/20. Do you see what explosivness means here? Explosivness of 20 should have effect, now is it a good point spend.?..you dont get much by increasing explosivness by a single point in b2g.
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Post by Ghosts on Sept 18, 2012 2:41:43 GMT
Right so if you are going to make a KP fighter in B2G you need to max explosiveness and then only really have minimal strength (To get maximum effectiveness of explosiveness you need to have it max at 20).. This obviously makes a massive difference to the results I have been seeing in the sim.. Whether it's enough to take it off the list of things that I feel aren't quite balanced in this game well that's another thing.. I would need to do some more sims to see that..
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