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Post by punchy on Aug 29, 2013 15:55:10 GMT
Can I ask Pav, have you changed speed itself or counter and feint as styles? The reason that I ask is height is now playing a very significant role when using counter, even a modest movement in height is producing a very significant swing... no, just changed style effects. of course height is part of the calculation - webl.vivi.com/webl/gory-details.html ------------- Counter-Punching A faster or taller fighter waits for his opponent to attack and then counter-punches. The counter-puncher gains +1 STR. If the fighter's SPD+HGT is greater than his opponent, then 33% of this advantage is added to his AGL, and 33% is subtracted from his opponent's AGL (but his opponent's AGL is never reduced below 50%). The counter-puncher loses 15% of his AGG. This does not count towards fatigue, or towards RST. ---------------------- Yeah, I'm quite familiar with the styles It looks to me as though you have given counter quite a tweak! I've not tested feint yet... Initial conclusions tell me that clinch beats counter where counter has only a speed advantage but no height advantage. If however you add even a little extra height then counter beats clinch and the effect is obviously magnified if you add more height. Oddly however, ropes kills counter, even when you have a massive height advantage. Clinch has the edge over ropes and all things being equal will win every time but a clever manager could have a shot of winning this style match if his opponent doesn't play it correctly. Ring has no chance vs clinch and doesn't do fantastically against counter either...
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Post by punchy on Aug 29, 2013 16:00:01 GMT
Just to finish off, feint is useless against all styles...
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Post by Pav on Aug 29, 2013 16:14:31 GMT
hmm, i guess we will wait and see what emerges. hopefully more ways to win.
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Post by punchy on Aug 29, 2013 16:48:02 GMT
hmm, i guess we will wait and see what emerges. hopefully more ways to win. It will be genuinely interesting because you now have a situation where different styles have a chance of winning and this should create much more variation in builds. My tests were very basic and involved just changing one key variable i.e. I would use a static line for each fighter 0/20/20/40 and then add in the appropriate style. So I would leave everything in the sim as I find it except change say STR for 1 fighter to 20 and change footwork for the other fighter to 20 and then have then the strong fighter use clinch and the agile fighter use ropes; that is how I arrived at my conclusion. In a tournie however managers will be tinkering around with builds and not using static lines in their plans and this will lead to some very interesting matchups. Now for example, if you run a counter puncher, he might beat a slugger but get hammered by a ropist so managers are going to have to think very carefully about their builds. Before this change I had been using essentially the same build in every tournament for the last few months but now I am going to have to think again...
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Post by Pav on Aug 29, 2013 17:10:56 GMT
hmm, i guess we will wait and see what emerges. hopefully more ways to win. It will be genuinely interesting because you now have a situation where different styles have a chance of winning and this should create much more variation in builds. I am tinkering with it now because some stated that today counter punches do not have a chance and it is always an endurance war.
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Post by bullan on Aug 29, 2013 17:33:26 GMT
any chance of an option to re-do a fighter like we can for the world cup please ?
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Post by Pav on Aug 29, 2013 23:25:39 GMT
any chance of an option to re-do a fighter like we can for the world cup please ? i'll look into it
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Post by bullan on Aug 30, 2013 3:00:02 GMT
thanks
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Post by Pav on Aug 30, 2013 14:50:50 GMT
any chance of an option to re-do a fighter like we can for the world cup please ? i'll look into it Did play with it this morning. It is a bit harder to do. Don't think its worth it for regular tourney, rather work on other things.
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Post by bullan on Aug 30, 2013 20:00:07 GMT
thanks for looking at it anyways
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Post by Pav on Sept 1, 2013 17:11:11 GMT
let me know for feedback on these changes to I can move them to main game...or not
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Post by llecha on Sept 1, 2013 21:17:55 GMT
The problem with these styles is no one knows how they should work the best way. There should be a balance, but we do have a balance. There are 3 main styles (they are competitive in endurance wars)- ropes, clinch and counter. So they determine fighters builds- clincher/slugger, CPer and ropist. But 3 other styles ain't useless though they can't compare to the best ones, they are kinda additional styles for the best ones.
Ropist uses ropes in endurance wars but get scores and try to avoid being stunned with ring style. CPer uses counter in end. wars and outside and feint for winning rounds. Clincher uses clinch and inside for dealing massive damage/stunning.
So these other 3 styles ain't useless, they just can't be used as dominating styles in endurance wars. If you'll make one of weak styles more strong -it's not hard at all- then you'll break this balance, some kind of feiner fighters will appear, they will use feint in endurance wars cos it becomes good enough. Is it good? I don't know. Maybe.
Now we have these 3 pairs. They are strange maybe, in fact I don't know if there should be these pairs, is it good or bad... There is no clear logic in all this. Why two of these pairs have defensive additional styles but clinch has offensive one? Why counterpuncher has two additional styles- feint and outside? KP-dancers also use outside style for jabbing.
In what way should we move? Do we need these pairs of styles? Should every style be as good as any other one?
All speed based styles are better in scoring. All footwork based styles are better in defence (cos chin+footwork determines it) And all strength based styles are better in stunning. All this is important too.
So the question is- how to make all these parameters work together well to get more interesting sim?
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Post by llecha on Sept 1, 2013 22:07:47 GMT
All these parameters and styles were invented by someone's head (Bruce's I guess). With imagination and some experience of watching boxing. While doing that no one knew how it would work, so, by chance, not by logic, we have now 3 good styles and 4 bad ones. It's interesting, for example, that speed has no offensive style- when fighter throws a lot of punches and don't let his opp work- a-la ropes for footwork. Just no one thought about it while creating styles... by chance. These pairs appeared by chance also I guess.
But in general all this works pretty well I think. There is a kind of proto system here:
height: counter - outside strength: clinch- inside agility: ropes- ring speed: no style- feint
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Post by Pav on Sept 1, 2013 23:04:11 GMT
but can speed based boxer be as successful as strength/footwork based one? If yes then we do have balance. Otherwise it is all endurance wars.
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Post by punchy on Sept 2, 2013 15:44:21 GMT
but can speed based boxer be as successful as strength/footwork based one? If yes then we do have balance. Otherwise it is all endurance wars. After your changes, I think that speed biased styles (actually just counter) are more competitive, at least when paired with height. A Cper can now be viable against a slugger but curiously struggles big time against ropes. In turn agility/footwork works well against speed bias but less well against strength. I would argue that this has produced more of a balance than before as you now have a situation where different styles have a shot at winning tournaments. More interestingly, the best build should now be achieved by mixing up different attributes and possibly using more than one style in a tournament. The current tournament should see if I am correct in that theory...
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