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Post by llecha on Feb 21, 2013 20:17:49 GMT
I don't put it in Ideas thread cos it's not pure suggestions, it's more about general game balance/state.
1. Mike Tyson issue
The characteristic of the game is that young fighter can't become a world champion because of lack of APs. All world champions are about 30 years old, the range between new comer and veteran is huge, about 10-15 Aps. That makes absolutely impossible to win a WT with young fighter. So there can be no Tyson, no Saul Alvarez etc..
Also this makes the game a bit slow and predictable. To randomize it a kind of psychological factor might be instituted that increases fighter's abilities depending on his winning streak. It could be a multiplier of current Aps, or just adding of "invigorative" Aps. It's not stable, trained Aps, but phantom ones. They get disappeared as soon as winning streak is over.
For example. A young prospect(<= 20 years old) gains 0,5 additional AP for every win during his winning streak. A 21-year-old fighter gains 0,45 Aps 22- 0,4 etc till 30 who gains nothing.
The winning streak reduces on a half(?) with any defeat and it starts to work in the opposite way after winning a WT (the goal is achieved, motivation goes down).
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Post by Pav on Feb 21, 2013 20:55:01 GMT
Its a good idea.
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Post by llecha on Feb 21, 2013 21:41:01 GMT
I'm not sure, Pav, it's just some thoughts, some outlines to think about
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Post by Pav on Feb 21, 2013 21:50:33 GMT
I like it. I have not had time to think about how to deal with young champs, but this idea has potential. It is a problem today that you have to hold your fighters back until they are in late 20s. But with is idea, When undefeated streak is over and fake APs are gone....its a long fall down isn't?
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Post by llecha on Feb 21, 2013 22:29:18 GMT
That's for sure. Naseem Hamed after fight vs Barrera Maybe these phantom APs should be reduced on a half, maybe on 1/4 for 1 defeat.
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Post by jetcat on Feb 22, 2013 10:21:21 GMT
Maybe another way how to achieve that - in Pro Evo football series every player is assigned his development type which indicates how quickly that player develops and when and how quickly he starts to lose skills. Some players peak early, some later, some in their 30's... some start to lose skills just after they have reached their top, others stay on top for quite a long time... some lose skills slowly, others quickly. The development curve stays the same no matter how much you train the player and how good the player is, it's just better players start higher than others and can reach higher values if properly trained.
This way you can have players/boxers who shine when they're 20 and they leave the scene at 25, and others who keep playing/fighting long after they've turned 40.
So in short the curve determines how quickly the player/boxer gains and loses skill points in each year of his career...
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Post by Pav on Feb 22, 2013 14:25:16 GMT
What I am going to do is something that many games like football manager do. Most gains from training come early, so I am going to have a multiplier to have training take place faster when you are young and slower when you are older.
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Post by llecha on Feb 22, 2013 20:25:55 GMT
Both ideas are interesting. Another aspect is that the game might create fighters with higher amount of Aps but with lower workrate(1-3). They are pretty good right now but hardly can be trained.
As for winning streak idea, this winning streak may be sumed of two parts. 1. Bonus depending on total preponderance of wins under losses in boxer's career. Can't be lost at once, only step by step. 2. Current winning streak bonus. Can be lost at once.
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Post by Pav on Feb 25, 2013 18:30:50 GMT
OK, i gave it some thought. Coming up the training will be much faster for young boxers and slow down over time. Additionally, really young boxers will gain strength and chin automatically as they are "filling up". I will let you know when I make these changes.
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Post by llecha on Feb 25, 2013 21:53:34 GMT
Nice, let's see how it will work.
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Post by llecha on Feb 25, 2013 22:15:30 GMT
2. WeBL's engine.
Though I like it and I'm really pleased that I have an opportunity to recall how good it was in the tournies (thanks, Pav), I have to say it's not suitable thing for B2G. At least it should be reconsidered for B2G.
This sim was made to work properly in very narrow range within +- 1 AP (in theory, amounts of stats should be absolutely equal for this sim, it was created to work precisely in these conditions). In this range it works well and within it the fights are interesting. But it's a very rare event in B2G when 2 fighters have so close amounts of fighting APs. Here you usually may face opp with +- 3-6 Aps. So most of fights are pretty boring- in the one half of them you have no chance to lose, in the other half you have no chance to win.
So all this very detailed FP section does not work in all, you don't need it to win most of times. Either this game does not need it at all (being a manager, not a sim), or it should be reconsidered to make it more significant.
I mean this WeBL sim should be a basis for B2G sim. B2G sim should consider B2G's particularity. The main thing is that in b2G boxers may face each other with much wider Aps ranges than they were in WeBL.
So I guess all these damage effects should be leveled a bit to compensate this Aps difference, to give at least some chances on winning to outsiders.
For example. Having more Aps the stronger fighter gives more damage to his opponent anyway, but using styles allows him deal even more damage and become even more effective vs. poor underdog.
So these styles rules ain't rational for B2G. It would be better in my opinion if styles give equal fixed bonuses to both fighters.
As a variant, feint could give +1,5 in speed on country level, + 3 on regional level and +4,5 on world level. Same with ring (footwork) and inside (str). Feint for scoring, ring for avoiding being stunned, inside for stunning and damage dealing. It'd be enough for this game I think.
Another way is to lower the strength effect in the damage dealing formula. This might make sim more "soft", not so "endurance wars" based. I remember that sissy vs. sissy fights were pretty interesting in WeBL, fight plans were much more important in them cos you could not wear your opp down that easy.
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Post by Ghosts on Feb 26, 2013 0:41:15 GMT
Some very interesting thoughts Lilly..
What at most you might fight 1-2aps down in WeBL and even then that could be difficult to overcome, trying to overcome 5-6 and probably more aps in is just about impossible. (I say probably more as it really comes down to the difference in fighting APS)
I'm not so sure that the set bonus would work especially in cases where your opponent already has a disadvantage in every skill. Unless of course you are saying that regardless of the skill level if you use feing you get 1.5 points of skill etc etc.. If so I still don't see that being enough to turn things around??
Reducing the strength effect in the damage dealing formula would kill off most fighters - Ropist vs Sissy for example was a tough match up for the ropist due to their inability to score well against the sissy but also as they didn't have the massive strength needed to wear sissy's down...
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Post by Pav on Feb 26, 2013 8:40:53 GMT
Interesting, so no additional bonus for the difference between the two fighters? Just set bonus for style that is not dependent on different in stats between two fighters? What would it do to the need to scout?
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Post by Rockplace on Feb 26, 2013 16:00:54 GMT
Interesting, so no additional bonus for the difference between the two fighters? Just set bonus for style that is not dependent on different in stats between two fighters? What would it do to the need to scout? I don't really like the suggested approach. The sim is all about tactics and styles and this would diminish the strategy component of the sim. AP difference is not as detrimental as it was in WeBL due to the additional non-fighting stats that B2G offers. Stats that do not have a massive influence on the outcome of a bout. What we need is to increase the pool of boxers that are able to compete against each other. So yes, increasing the speed of training for younger boxers would boost the number of boxers than can compete on the global stage. By the same token, by lowering the age at which veteran boxers stats start deteriorating would also make this larger pool of boxers competitive against these veterans. Thats my opinion in any event...
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Post by Pav on Feb 26, 2013 16:43:19 GMT
Rock, I agree that fast training for young will help this. However llecha is also right that WEBL engine was designed for every AP to count. What if in addition to training young fast we did this in the non-tourney game site. We half the attribute differences for fight attributes (speed, footwork, strength, chin etc) during the fight.
So lets say fighter1 is is str=16 footwork=12 spd=8, etc fighter 2 is str=2 footwork=6 spd=12
During fight we lower the number of the boxer with advantage to half point. so we end up with this for the fight: fighter1 str=9 footwork=9 spd=8, etc
fighter2 str=2 footwork=6 spd=10, etc
This will halve the effect of AP advantage, however it will still be important to scout.
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